Curse

Elnino · May 13, 2011, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

To Elnino: Let me ask you this. Ever seen a person with a BDS? Thats Bone Dragon Staff if you didn't know. If SF wasn't around, and no maintainable spell prot was, it would take significantly longer to complete SoO(Shards of Orr) on a regular basis. So lets say one lucky son of a bitch gets a BDS on his first run. Since SoO takes so god damn long to do(which all of the non SC people seem to mind things that take a bit of time) he is one of if not the only person that has one, and he values it at 800 ectos. No one save maybe the person who has been around all 6 years and has done nothing but play UW with the 7 friends in his guild(no Dhumm, no skeles) all 8 of them may have 800 ectos by now. But wait, you could make this comparison with ANYTHING that drops from a dungeon or an elite area chest. The entire economy would revolve around a few people who had those ridiculous hard to find items, where we(the SC community) make those items a bit easier to farm and make the materials we use to trade for them, easier to obtain too.

With no item getting progressively better, and vanity is everything, any rare item is either worth as much as the only people who have it decide, or worth nothing, and because of the SC community we make it a happy medium of worth more then the average item, but still obtainable.

So you enjoy de-valuing items? You do know that the struggle to obtain rare items is one of the very little factors that keep this game alive? If everyone had free access to everything, there would be nothing else to work towards and this game would have died years ago.

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And I'm surprised you didn't want to write a wall of text to prove a point that many of us don't see, even if I'm the only one who can't see it, you like doing things the slow way right?

Here's my wall of text explaining why certain skills used in SC's are bad. It's not in context with this thread as it's a reply to a thread asking for a shadowform buff.

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It's not that speedclears are bad or anything. It's just that certain skills (like shadowform) have made speedclears too efficient. Shadowform in its past and present form is too efficient at completing high-end parts of the game and it's use in speed clears have made all other forms of completing high-end areas inferior (if not obsolete).

Anet (and I'm presuming the general playerbase) always wanted this game to have large variation. Where it be, how people complete certain aspects of the game, the skills you use, the armor you wear, the formats you prefer etc etc. The thing about speed clears (and the overpowered skills used for them) is that it is simply the best possible way to complete high-end areas. By being the best, it has made every other method weaker and undesirable. This reduces the variation that was supposed to be present in this game.

When something is so powerful to the extent that it has become the primary choice by a large portion of the playerbase and making all other alternatives considerably weaker, it is a sign that it is too efficient at doing what it does and is in need of a nerf.

This can also be seen in the recent dervish update. Dervish's in pvp are too efficient at doing what they do and can outplay both warriors and assassins with little to know weaknesses. They too are in need of a nerf.

If you watched the interview with John Stumme by Wartower (for the Embark beach update) he explained the reasoning behing the Asura Scan and BuH nerfs and I think his explanation fits very well with why Shadowform and speedclears are overpowered and need to be toned down.

You can find the interview here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5xAGxfCKU if you haven't already watched it. (It's during the latter half of the interview)

Then someone said something along the lines of buffing more skills to combat SC's, to which I said:

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I don't necessarily see speed clears as a bad thing since I myself have dreaded the thought of spending hours completing underworld and the domain of anguish. However, in a balance perspective, having one thing stand higher than everything else and be able to complete a task better than anything else points to it being more efficient (not saying that other alternatives are inneficient) and therefore, more powerful than everything else i.e. power creep (and we all know that power creep is a bad thing).

The answer to power creep is not to increase the power of lesser skills (making them power creeped too) as it will just cause further imbalance in this game and will worsen the effects of power creep. Anet has been repeatedly attempting to reduce the power creep in this game, yet failing on some occassions (see: Dervish update) but I think it is fairly obvious to them and to us that buffing other skills to the same power of shadowform will be a horrible mistake for the good of this game.

Just to point out that just because speedclears are the most efficient doesn't mean that, if it is nerfed, completing high-end areas will start taking 2-3 hours to do. The playerbase created speedclears, I'm sure another efficient alternative will be created soon enough. There has just been no opportunity to come up with them since you already have something perfect at your disposal. Don't underestimate yourselves!

But, hey! If nerfing shadowform (and other power creeped skills used in speedclears) will make the playerbase start thinking outside the box and running different builds with a lot more diversity then I'm all for it!

Then some other guy said that the concept of sc's came as a result of players thinking outside the box, to which I said:

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The entire concept of speedclears came as a result of ridiculous buffs to certain skills in this game. It didn't take a genius to see what was coming.

Then the first guy pretty much said that people hating on sf (and other skills used in SC's) are people that have been unsuccessful with it, to which I said:

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They aren't difficult to learn. They just take practice like a lot of other things in this game so I fail to see any point you're trying to make.

This is why pugs failed. Not because guild teams are so amazingly skilled at it, but because they have had more practice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

I don't think of SCing as a vital community service, but this game economy and the game overall would have imo died long long ago without it

False.

Net The Nabi · May 13, 2011, 07:23 AM // 07:23

I had actually read that when you posted it, and yes i re-read it. I guess we will just differ on our opinions. No matter what something will rise as optimal. Something will be best and someone will cry for it to be nerfed.

As far as you're point as to some people still play this game in pursuit only of that rare item, I reply, and thats at the current standard with SCs, I don't see them sticking around if everything takes x amount of time longer for everyone, and was so in the first place. But again thats just me.

To reply to you stating they aren't difficult to learn I retort with asking you to give me something that then is difficult to learn. Besides something counter intuitive, like learning to write with you're other hand, or behind you're back, what is truly difficult to learn without time and practice? The only things I can think of are when its that you stop learning and it becomes natural born skill(IE Pro athletes)

I don't disagree pugs fail more often because they are less practiced. But when I hear/read that SF makes you INVINCIBLE, I think, well, its only useful if you know how to use it, or took the time to learn it so, its not really invincibility right? After all you also need 2-3 other skill with it to survive in just about any area. Also, as I originally said, Cons and Pcons make things maintainable, make things quicker, and make things moreso imbalanced then the skills themselves. Why not cry for a nerf of cons and just have SF users adapt to having Deadly Paradox and OF users bring Glyph?

@ Jeydra - as I just said above, that is possible because of cons and SF, with cons being the more powerful, in my eyes of the two. As BSS said, things like that take lots of practice and dedicated time, asking just anyone to do that won't work.

And to anyone who thought the 200+ comment was serious, I'm pretty sure it was sarcasm, since its SCs most of all who are aware pugs can just buy the stones.

Missing HB · May 13, 2011, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

Also, as I originally said, Cons and Pcons make things maintainable, make things quicker, and make things moreso imbalanced then the skills themselves. Why not cry for a nerf of cons and just have SF users adapt to having Deadly Paradox and OF users bring Glyph?

That's fun , on that thread a few months ago when i suggested to remove consets which provided a way bigger advantage than skills themselves , i got trolled and flamed on 3 pages.....

But yes , i still agree with that idea though... consets ( especially essence of celerity imo) provide a too big advantage , and it's quite ridiculous to see that some builds only work when having cons + all bonus items from events.....

Jeydra · May 13, 2011, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

@ Jeydra - as I just said above, that is possible because of cons and SF, with cons being the more powerful, in my eyes of the two. As BSS said, things like that take lots of practice and dedicated time, asking just anyone to do that won't work.

We really are stepping over the boundaries of this thread, but if you believe cons are more powerful, I suggest you try doing Ooze Pit without Shadow Form (and Obsidian Flesh, and Vow of Silence). Go ahead and use cons. Post results.

Are you implying that if it takes lots of practice and dedicated time, we should ignore the fact that that single Necromancer beat out the best possible non-SF builds with 7 full heroes tagging along? One player + cons > 1 player + 7 heroes by at least five minutes, and probably more. This is despite 1 player + 7H having eight times the firepower as the Necromancer.

I cannot agree with that. Time, practice, etc - who cares. It is possible, and that's what matters. You do not balance games around what bad players can do or cannot do, or next we'll have "guys I keep forgetting to refresh Fire Attunement so I run out of energy with Searing Flames, plz buff Searing Flames".

Bellatrixa · May 13, 2011, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

P.S. Maybe this sounds ridiculous to some people but to all those who "Just don't have 3+ hours to dedicate to ONE THING" I have two things to say. #1. If you're not willing to take the time and effort to EARN your statue then you don't deserve it. #2. Why can't you just plan accordingly? If you have 2 hours, start UW and go through the progressions and quests you have time for until you know you won't have time for the next quest. Stay in a safe spot(IE any reaper once the quest is done or after you've cleared up to them and he's just popped) and stand still till you get back? Would it kill you to leave your computer on for a few hours while your're not there? Maybe you have a laptop with a bad battery, well why not just plug the charger in? and if you're response is I need the computer for something else, THEN MINIMIZE THE GAME! Guild Wars doesn't need to be the active thing on your screen to be running.

I want to have your babies for this ^

Also, while people are on about the comparison to DoA, are you saying it's not fair that the more of DoA you complete at once the more gems you get?

Full UW took my old balancedway guild less time then full DoA. And yes, we would take Paragons, Rangers, Warriors and Elementalists (not running ER either) and we did it in HM. I do SCs now but I actually did every elite area in balancedway HM first. Yes, I know doing UW can take a while, but as said above, it's an elite area, what do you expect? You don't get anything for nothing. Even SC teams have to learn their roles in order to pull off fast times (and a lot pop a load of pcons in the process). The way I do UWSC now is a balancedway team that takes roughly an hour. I go on my Necro. I could take a good few others of my characters, none of which are sins!

I'm sick of this assumption that you can only SC on a sin. My boyfriend goes on his monk (even in sinway dungeons), I generally take my Necro or my Mesmer. If a bonder is needed, I have my Ele. Generally a rit is liked as well. I know people who run ranger terras. YOU DO NOT NEED A FREAKIN SIN! In certain places they are required in teams, so what? Run one of the other roles.

Also for those wanting to split up UW: you do realise it's one instance, right? If you can figure out how to split up UW and "save" progress, by all means go ahead. With Slavers and DoA the completion is tied to the quest. I don't see how UW could work in the same way.

Can we please have less of this wanting a "win game" button mentality that seems to be plaguing Guild Wars lately? Some of us like a challenge, not being able to faceroll through the entire content. Elite areas are elite for a reason. Part of that is the time needed to complete those areas.

Sankt Hallvard · May 13, 2011, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Look guys, if EFGJack can finish the uw then everyone can. If you fail at uw it's time to uninstall and find another game. Hopefully they buff dhuum so not all the scrubs can get the monument in their halls. Add some respawning nightmares and more of those chained ghosts there.

Bright Star Shine · May 13, 2011, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Look guys, if EFGJack can finish the uw then everyone can. If you fail at uw it's time to uninstall and find another game. Hopefully they buff dhuum so not all the scrubs can get the monument in their halls. Add some respawning nightmares and more of those chained ghosts there.

I can tank sub conset DoA runs (if the main team is good) can you? Because, obviously, you can, since 1 person can do it, that must mean everyone can do it.

I might be an elitist, but that what you just said there makes no sense and is condescending to say the least.

aspi · May 13, 2011, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I can tank sub conset DoA runs (if the main team is good) can you? Because, obviously, you can, since 1 person can do it, that must mean everyone can do it.

I might be an elitist, but that what you just said there makes no sense and is condescending to say the least.

My guess is that he means EFGjack can do it with heroes and provided the vids to show how.

Reformed · May 13, 2011, 02:41 PM // 14:41

If you think UW is bad now you should have tried it when it was fresh off the anti-SC buff that it got. Many of the quest spawns have been dramatically reduced since then including 4H which originally had roughly twice the number of dryders. The real irony here is that they added all of this crap to stop SC teams when the only thing it really did was further hinder farmers and normal teams.

Re: Missing HB, +1 on the cons argument just because it's such a mixed message that they send. A quick glance at the 'common' stuff:
+4 to all attributes
+300hp / +30e
+33%IMS / +33%IAS
-25% activation time / -20% skill recharge
50% immunity to criticals
+10AR / -5 damage reduction
+1hp Regen

Looking over that list it's so obvious to me now why Asuran Scan was a priority for nerfing /sarc.

Bright Star Shine · May 13, 2011, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

My guess is that he means EFGjack can do it with heroes and provided the vids to show how.

I can provide you vids as well, I even have vids of parts of a run on Youtube my point was that what he said was utterly and completely ridiculous and not constructive at all.

cthulhu reborn · May 13, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Lemme requote and highlight the flaws.

Ecto is not the most important material, it's equally important as Shards. You make it sound like buying 100+ shards or gathering them means nothing and is redundant when buying the armor.

Ecto's already drop in FoW, at a very low droprate, so no point there.

There is nothing wrong with this. Getting FoW armor should be hard, costly and it makes sense that the 2 toughest elite areas -originally- in game provide those. Why does it strike you as odd that needing materials from another place for armor is considered normal? If you ask me, Cloth, Steel etc should also drop in FoW from now on! Because it doesn't make sense to me that I have to get them outside of the area where I want to get my armor.

Coffers say hi.

Your entire theory is flawed because you consider items dropping in one place that are needed in the other to be bad. It makes perfect sense.

How about you reread your stuff and think about why I asked you if you thought it through before trying to outsmart *** me.

Oh please get over yourself. Picking at words, twisting it into something else. You think you had to pick a fight with me because you misinterpret what I say.

Ecto's are the most important in my view because they are the most expensive part. Simple. It's not about the number needed, but about the value. That makes it more important in my book.

The drop rate in FoW is next to nothing and therefore insignificant. It's not enough to have a chance of collecting enough there for a suit of armour.

If you actually read what I wrote more objectively, you would've understood that I said that I don't mind there being elite areas that are only really for the hard core...as long as they don't have materials that are needed elsewhere that can only realistically be gotten there. You cannot have one area fine for casual players and the other not when the armour is available to buy in the casual area. That is my point. If UW was not toughened up there was no issue for me. Cloth etc can be gotten in casual areas. If Obby armour was about hardcore players then it should be gotten in UW and not FoW.

Coffers are also part of the DoA area...I never said it had to be in the explorable parts. So you are wrong because that location is part of DoA. So there mister "accuse without thinking".

So get off my case with your lame, self-invented arguments. Next time, instead of instantly flaming someone for something you think they said, how about simply asking what someone means or disagree in a normal way.

Net The Nabi · May 13, 2011, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

We really are stepping over the boundaries of this thread, but if you believe cons are more powerful, I suggest you try doing Ooze Pit without Shadow Form (and Obsidian Flesh, and Vow of Silence). Go ahead and use cons. Post results.

Are you implying that if it takes lots of practice and dedicated time, we should ignore the fact that that single Necromancer beat out the best possible non-SF builds with 7 full heroes tagging along? One player + cons > 1 player + 7 heroes by at least five minutes, and probably more. This is despite 1 player + 7H having eight times the firepower as the Necromancer.

I cannot agree with that. Time, practice, etc - who cares. It is possible, and that's what matters. You do not balance games around what bad players can do or cannot do, or next we'll have "guys I keep forgetting to refresh Fire Attunement so I run out of energy with Searing Flames, plz buff Searing Flames".

Seriously? You seem to be missing the point. Cons make SF as powerful as it is, along with Shroud and on most occasions other skills. Me running through Ooze pit with 7h and cons wouldn't prove anything other then I can do it, and obviously I can't do it as fast since I can't skip any mobs. I don't think the ability to skip mobs is a bad thing, because in ~95% of the game its virtually useless. Without ranged aggro sliver and whirling do virtually no damage and won't kill anything, in normal mode you can't even pull mobs to the spot you would have the team spike in a SC. SF is powerful in elite content because of the way its set up and played. I can't think of almost any other instance I'd choose an SF build over a standard 7h one.

And for the life of me I don't understand why you keep referring to SF/maintainable spell prot users as bad players. If its because you(meaning anyone) can complete the content without it, then that argument isn't very valid to me. I can go through life eating nothing but the flesh of another human to sustain myself, because I go through life without eating real food and I'm surviving, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG AND I'M BETTER THAN YOUUUUUU xD You see my point I'm sure.

@Bellatrix - YAY SOMEONE GETS IT<3

Grj · May 13, 2011, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

That's fun , on that thread a few months ago when i suggested to remove consets which provided a way bigger advantage than skills themselves , i got trolled and flamed on 3 pages.....

I remember way back when the whole 55 duo/solo thing was taking off, the few people that started threads asking for it to be changed got exactly the same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

If you think UW is bad now you should have tried it when it was fresh off the anti-SC buff that it got. Many of the quest spawns have been dramatically reduced since then including 4H which originally had roughly twice the number of dryders. The real irony here is that they added all of this crap to stop SC teams when the only thing it really did was further hinder farmers and normal teams.

Re: Missing HB, +1 on the cons argument just because it's such a mixed message that they send. A quick glance at the 'common' stuff:
+4 to all attributes
+300hp / +30e
+33%IMS / +33%IAS
-25% activation time / -20% skill recharge
50% immunity to criticals
+10AR / -5 damage reduction
+1hp Regen

Looking over that list it's so obvious to me now why Asuran Scan was a priority for nerfing /sarc.

All they had to do was nerf some skills and consumables into the ground to slow down speedclears yet a endgame area gets adjusted instead.

A player can get all those consumable benefits without attaching a skill to your bar and suffer no after effects yet there is now recently a 10 minute downtime on summoning stones.

There should be downtime on some consumables.

Also this thread is hillarious:

OP: These quest's are taking too long and i'd like continue on from where i left off.

Speed clear defense: learn to play, if you don't want to play that long gtfo.

then there's this:

Speedclear nerf people: Speedclears need to be further toned down.

Speedclear defense: I don't wanna play for 3 hours and get jack **** drops.

LOL

Elnino · May 13, 2011, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

I don't disagree pugs fail more often because they are less practiced. But when I hear/read that SF makes you INVINCIBLE, I think, well, its only useful if you know how to use it, or took the time to learn it so, its not really invincibility right? After all you also need 2-3 other skill with it to survive in just about any area.

Problem is that once you put in some practice into SF builds (which isn't a whole lot of practice really), you do become invincible. Things like watching the field, positioning and target selection in gvg takes so much more practice and a lot more time to perfect.

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Also, as I originally said, Cons and Pcons make things maintainable, make things quicker, and make things moreso imbalanced then the skills themselves. Why not cry for a nerf of cons and just have SF users adapt to having Deadly Paradox and OF users bring Glyph?

Yes, cons are definately part of the problem and need to be addressed but that doesn't mean that the power-creeped skills don't need to be looked at because they just add to the problem.

Bright Star Shine · May 13, 2011, 11:41 PM // 23:41

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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Ecto's are the most important in my view because they are the most expensive part. Simple. It's not about the number needed, but about the value. That makes it more important in my book.

Yeah, but shards are still near 4k/ea, so they still make up a big junk of the deal, so picturing ecto's as most important is still not correct, they are more pricey but equally significant.

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The drop rate in FoW is next to nothing and therefore insignificant. It's not enough to have a chance of collecting enough there for a suit of armour.

Well, you said yourself that the droprate in FoW should be lower than in UW, you ASKED for drop rates being very low to keep UW more important. Then what's the problem, because exactly what you ask for is already in place.

Quote:

If you actually read what I wrote more objectively, you would've understood that I said that I don't mind there being elite areas that are only really for the hard core...as long as they don't have materials that are needed elsewhere that can only realistically be gotten there. You cannot have one area fine for casual players and the other not when the armour is available to buy in the casual area. That is my point. If UW was not toughened up there was no issue for me. Cloth etc can be gotten in casual areas. If Obby armour was about hardcore players then it should be gotten in UW and not FoW.

And since when do you decide on what area is suited for FoW armor? FoW is made up of a giant FORGE in the middle of it. With a giant ANVIL, and a FORGEMASTER next to it. What, are the Reapers gonna make your armor? Or after you defeated Dhuum, maybe you can ask him to make you an armor set and polish your shoes? FoW armor is in FoW because it belongs there, lorewise, and because FoW -and note, I'm gonna have to say it twice- was originally MEANT to be tougher than UW. It has more quests, more variety of foes, collectible drops salvage to more mats than the ones in UW, etc. So that's why it's in FoW. Oh, and did I mention the giant forge yet? You know, that place where they forge armor?

I'm flaming you not because of this thread, because we're seriously off topic, but because you ask for things that mean nothing and are redundant to say the least. Especially since some things you ask for are already in place.

Jeydra · May 14, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

Seriously? You seem to be missing the point. Cons make SF as powerful as it is, along with Shroud and on most occasions other skills. Me running through Ooze pit with 7h and cons wouldn't prove anything other then I can do it, and obviously I can't do it as fast since I can't skip any mobs. I don't think the ability to skip mobs is a bad thing, because in ~95% of the game its virtually useless. Without ranged aggro sliver and whirling do virtually no damage and won't kill anything, in normal mode you can't even pull mobs to the spot you would have the team spike in a SC. SF is powerful in elite content because of the way its set up and played. I can't think of almost any other instance I'd choose an SF build over a standard 7h one.

And for the life of me I don't understand why you keep referring to SF/maintainable spell prot users as bad players. If its because you(meaning anyone) can complete the content without it, then that argument isn't very valid to me. I can go through life eating nothing but the flesh of another human to sustain myself, because I go through life without eating real food and I'm surviving, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG AND I'M BETTER THAN YOUUUUUU xD You see my point I'm sure.

You can't think of any instance you'd choose an SF build over a standard 7H one despite the fact that you can clear areas twice as fast (or even faster) with SF over 7H?

You're the one who referred to SF users as bad players, since you said PuGs fail so much etc. I don't care what bad players do. I care what good players do, and good players with SF way outspeed other good players without SF.

No, I don't see your point.

I think it's funny that every single player I've seen who has defended SF is an SC player. Lol, classic case of selective blindness.

North Devon Dog · May 14, 2011, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Gosh so easy to mash egos... back on topic

UW is harder NM that every other area HM fact. Not because of the AI and or the Monsters or whatever but because...

Its been six years now. We have all moved on. I have kids. DoA I can do for a laugh in my spare time HM. If I fail its 20 mins-60mins lost.

UW reminds me of GvG from years ago... Master got barbed trap? yep, know when to cast it ok, Gwen got fallback, ok.

hang on 90 mins in RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO Livia you retard come back......

Signed

Elnino · May 14, 2011, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think it's funny that every single player I've seen who has defended SF is an SC player. Lol, classic case of selective blindness.

That's what power creep does to people.

I blame Anet for letting it happen in the first place.

Ghost Dog · May 14, 2011, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think it's funny that every single player I've seen who has defended SF is an SC player. Lol, classic case of selective blindness.

I concur.

Seen some "interesting" justifications with it.

Net The Nabi · May 14, 2011, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You can't think of any instance you'd choose an SF build over a standard 7H one despite the fact that you can clear areas twice as fast (or even faster) with SF over 7H?

You're the one who referred to SF users as bad players, since you said PuGs fail so much etc. I don't care what bad players do. I care what good players do, and good players with SF way outspeed other good players without SF.

No, I don't see your point.

I think it's funny that every single player I've seen who has defended SF is an SC player. Lol, classic case of selective blindness.

I use SF to SC and solo dungeons, and SC elite areas, thats it. I don't see a need to use it anywhere else, nor do I think it useful almost anywhere else.

I referred to pugs not as bad players, but rather as an example that SF doesn't make you invincible when its clear not EVERYONE who tries with it succeeds.

My point is there is no reason as to why SF or any maintainable spell prot at this point in the game should be nerfed so why call for it? It deserved to be nerfed at some points, and things were changed.

And why would the people who SC defend SF? Hmmm I wonder, maybe because they are the ones who use it most? Maybe because its there style of play you are calling to be thrown away? Speed clearing doesn't effect any of you're game if you choose to stay away from it, with the exception of trading/game economy. I understand the skeles and dhumm where placed in UW as a result of SCing, but Skeles really aren't a big deal, they are quite easy to kill with or without an 8 man team, and Dhumm just takes planning.

I find people who act high and mighty because they don't do a certain thing to be hysterical. Its like the people who play an instrument and say, oh I don't listen to x band because even though their songs are catchy and the lyrics have meaning, the song isn't musically technical enough for me. I only listen to Dream Theater and Rush.